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Hi Andrew,</div>
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I have completed my research on this case and have some answers for you.</div>
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Your observation about the DC waiting for the PDC to process is accurate. Here are the circumstances for non-PDC's:</div>
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A BDC must send the request to a PDC and wait for a response. If the request fails to the PDC, then randomize password locally.</div>
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An RODC must send the request to a PDC, but optionally request a BDC if the PDC call fails.</div>
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We roll the password in the following circumstances at logon:</div>
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The account has been flagged for a password change at next logon.</div>
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The password is expired.</div>
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The password is nearing expiration and validity of that ticket would surpass the expiration of the password.</div>
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If you have any additional questions, please let me know.</div>
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<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;"><b>Regards,</b></span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; margin-top: 4pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;"><b>Kristian Smith</b></span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; margin-top: 4pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;">Support Escalation Engineer | Microsoft® Corporation</span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; margin-top: 4pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;"><b>Office phone</b>: +1 425-421-4442</span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; margin-top: 4pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;"><b>Email</b>:
</span><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: white;"><a href="mailto:kristian.smith@microsoft.com" id="OWA147e0edd-c7b5-0353-f21e-24f058d1d108" class="OWAAutoLink" data-loopstyle="linkonly" style="margin: 0px;">kristian.smith@microsoft.com</a></span></p>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Kristian Smith <Kristian.Smith@microsoft.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 29, 2024 11:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Andrew Bartlett <abartlet@samba.org><br>
<b>Cc:</b> cifs-protocol mailing list <cifs-protocol@lists.samba.org>; Microsoft Support <supportmail@microsoft.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> msDS-ExpirePasswordsOnSmartCardOnlyAccounts - when are passwords rotated? - TrackingID#2404290040010292</span>
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Hi Andrew,</div>
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I'm creating two new cases for your inquiries. This one will be for the following component of your question:</div>
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"Can you clarify which parts of the AD DC calls ResetSmartCardAccountPassword and under what circumstances? Is it just the KDC during PK-INIT AS-REQ processing?</div>
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Is there anything else that rotates these passwords? The reason I ask is that this being the only case would suggest that where the DC is not the PDC, the PK-INIT AS-REQ processing must wait for the PDC before continuing processing. (We know the local case
does, it gets the new password for return in the PAC)."</div>
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You will see another email from me soon regarding the other case. I will send an update once I have conducted an investigation into these concerns.</div>
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<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;"><b>Regards,</b></span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; margin-top: 4pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;"><b>Kristian Smith</b></span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; margin-top: 4pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;">Support Escalation Engineer | Microsoft® Corporation</span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; margin-top: 4pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;"><b>Office phone</b>: +1 425-421-4442</span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; margin-top: 4pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;"><b>Email</b>:
</span><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: white;"><a href="mailto:kristian.smith@microsoft.com" id="OWAa5e13fce-5774-9928-89b0-877e7e277e7f" class="x_OWAAutoLink" data-loopstyle="linkonly" style="margin: 0px;">kristian.smith@microsoft.com</a></span></p>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Andrew Bartlett <abartlet@samba.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 28, 2024 9:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kristian Smith <Kristian.Smith@microsoft.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> cifs-protocol mailing list <cifs-protocol@lists.samba.org>; Microsoft Support <supportmail@microsoft.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [EXTERNAL] Protocol documentation for automatic rollover of expired passwords with UF_SMARTCARD_REQUIRED - TrackingID#2404240040010190</span>
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You don't often get email from abartlet@samba.org. <a href="https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification" id="OWA85fa9e90-de01-0396-5fea-cce965b11635" class="x_OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" data-loopstyle="linkonly">
Learn why this is important</a></div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left;">Thanks <span style="font-size: 14.6667px;">
Kristian, that is must helpful</span>. </div>
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</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left;">Can you clarify which parts of the AD DC calls ResetSmartCardAccountPassword and under what circumstances? Is it just the KDC during PK-INIT AS-REQ processing?</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; font-size: 14.6667px;">Is there anything else that rotates these passwords? The reason I ask is that this being the only case would suggest that where the DC is not the PDC, the PK-INIT AS-REQ processing must wait
for the PDC before continuing processing. (We know the local case does, it gets the new password for return in the PAC).</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; font-size: 14.6667px;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; font-size: 14.6667px;">Finally, the doc needs some correction, the references to pwdLastSet make not sense (it should always be in the past), I think a meta-variable for the calculated password expiry is what is
meant.</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; font-size: 14.6667px;">Thanks!</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left; font-size: 14.6667px;">Andrew Bartlett</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left;">On Thu, 2024-04-25 at 21:41 +0000, Kristian Smith wrote:</div>
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[Michael to Bcc]</div>
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Hi Andrew,</div>
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Thanks for reaching out with your question. The password-rolling attribute you're looking for is "msDS-ExpirePasswordsOnSmartCardOnlyAccounts" </div>
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<b>It can be found in the following docs:</b></div>
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[MS-SAMS] 3.3.5.7.2 Normative Specification</div>
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[MS-ADA2] 2.319 Attribute msDS-ExpirePasswordsOnSmartCardOnlyAccounts</div>
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<b>To a lesser extent here as well: </b></div>
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[MS-ADSC] 2.44 Class domainDNS</div>
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Let me know if this answers the question, or if there is anything that can be clarified.</div>
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<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;"><b>Regards,</b></span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; margin-top: 4pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;"><b>Kristian Smith</b></span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; margin-top: 4pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;">Support Escalation Engineer | Microsoft® Corporation</span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; margin-top: 4pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;"><b>Office phone</b>: +1 425-421-4442</span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; margin-top: 4pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(47, 47, 47); background-color: white;"><b>Email</b>:
</span><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI"; font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: white;"><a href="mailto:kristian.smith@microsoft.com" id="OWA337ee275-8dea-4e7e-4410-0af02aa8366f" class="x_x_OWAAutoLink" data-loopstyle="linkonly" style="margin: 0px;">kristian.smith@microsoft.com</a></span></p>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Michael Bowen <Mike.Bowen@microsoft.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 24, 2024 10:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Andrew Bartlett <abartlet@samba.org><br>
<b>Cc:</b> cifs-protocol mailing list <cifs-protocol@lists.samba.org>; Microsoft Support <supportmail@microsoft.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [EXTERNAL] Protocol documentation for automatic rollover of expired passwords with UF_SMARTCARD_REQUIRED - TrackingID#2404240040010190</span>
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[Case number in subject]</div>
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[Casemail to cc]</div>
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[Dochelp to bcc]</div>
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Hi Andrew,</div>
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Thank you for your request. The case number 2404240040010190 has been created for this inquiry. One of our team members will follow up with you soon.</div>
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Best regards, </div>
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<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); background-color: white;">Mike Bowen</span><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><br>
</span><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); background-color: white;">Sr. Escalation Engineer - Microsoft® Corporation</span></p>
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<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Andrew Bartlett <abartlet@samba.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 23, 2024 5:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Interoperability Documentation Help <dochelp@microsoft.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> cifs-protocol mailing list <cifs-protocol@lists.samba.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Protocol documentation for automatic rollover of expired passwords with UF_SMARTCARD_REQUIRED</span>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left;">Kia Ora Dochelp!</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left;">I'm looking for any documentation as to the finer details of</div>
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DCs can support automatic rolling of the NTLM and other password-based secrets on a user account configured to require PKI authentication. This configuration is also known as "Smart card required for interactive logon"</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left;">from</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left;"> <a href="https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/identity/ad-ds/active-directory-functional-levels#windows-server-2016-domain-functional-level-features" id="OWA551e21b4-bc95-5fb5-9f0f-b73bc6baa036" class="x_OWAAutoLink" shash="FZUwRvoEaRN6I1aWIbvai5Myd8FlmPaaew2pu/aoj+5lTR5al9U7AZ9OKHo0XoIn+8jRAi6O6VOnwOq7urGjlghjHwOa6kWbuYVIYE44Dy/sj6GQ75+afxWRrnyZOfPW5HTPC2vJi5qtFgfMryZt8MGp61CT2xxuvsGttpK0afs=" originalsrc="https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/identity/ad-ds/active-directory-functional-levels#windows-server-2016-domain-functional-level-features" data-auth="Verified" data-loopstyle="linkonly">https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/identity/ad-ds/active-directory-functional-levels#windows-server-2016-domain-functional-level-features</a></div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left;">I don't see any mention of this in MS-ADPS, but am not sure where next to check.</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left;">In particular, while I have reproduced the rollover for 'must change now', I'm wondering when the password otherwise rolls over, is it before the expiry (eg with the 'old password allowed time' grace of 60mins
for example, or at the expiry?</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left;">Thanks,</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; text-align: left;">Andrew Bartlett</div>
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